Tria Prima Podcast | Episode 4 | The rosicrucians
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In this episode we talk about the Rosicrucians, their origin story, influence on other groups, and how they exist today.
It’s been a while since we’ve posted a podcast. The pandemic put a stop to us getting together to record these in person. We recorded this one on Zoom and promise more podcasts to come.
We may have been absent but we were not idle. Jaime Paul Lamb published his new book Approaching the Middle Chamber: The Seven Liberal Arts in Freemasonry & the Western Esoteric Tradition.
We also have some really cool projects in the works that we will be announcing in early 2021.
Rosicrucian Foundational Texts
The Chemical Wedding of Christian Rosenkreutz
Tria Prima Podcast Episode 4 Transcript
Jake Trayer, Jaime Paul Lamb, Pat Shannahan
Note: This transcript was created using Otter.ai, a tool that uses artificial intelligence to transcribe audio. It does a good job but it’s not perfect. This transcription is intended to be a reference to help listeners find sections within the podcast. Please refer to the podcast audio for full quotes.
Pat Shannahan 00:04
Welcome to the tree premium podcast the podcast about Freemasonry and the western esoteric tradition. I’m Pat with the Jq Jamie.
Jake Trayer 00:16
Hey, I’m Jake trayer per usual you know the thoughts and opinions on on this podcast on necessarily reflect those of of the Grand Lodge of Arizona or any other group that we may be a part of.
Pat Shannahan 00:33
It’s been a while since we’re able to get together and kind of do one of these podcasts. We kind of had one false start where we get kind of messed up the audio messed up the first one. No, I’m talking about the first one. We did we did what really went on astrology that just that zoom kind of eight, but we’ll get we’ll do that one again. We
Jake Trayer 00:52
promise that’s been months. It’s been months. We haven’t been doing nothing. No, there’s some things happening in the background. We’ve been working on some other stuff. But anyways, we’re here. We’re live. It’s not Saturday night.
Pat Shannahan 01:09
Well, so what are we talking about today, guys?
Jake Trayer 01:13
Jaime Paul Lamb 01:13
Rosicrucianism. Yeah, Jake and I were on the phone earlier. And thinking okay, let’s, let’s get back to work with Tria Prima podcasts. And what do you want to do one on so we kicked around a couple ideas. One of them was Masonic conspiracy theories.
Jake Trayer 01:34
We bring it on, we got to do that.
Jaime Paul Lamb 01:36
Yeah, where we bring up, you know, the whole bafflement thing, maybe some taxall stuff, maybe some, maybe some Moloch, or Bohemian Grove stuff. I definitely want to get into that I’d have to do a little research. But
Pat Shannahan 01:54
I want us to do one some at some point about the anti Masonic party, you know, because like, that was like a political party. At one point in America, which is like, kind of crazy that.
Jake Trayer 02:09
Can you still registers that? I bet I could get that on my ID.
They have a license plate?
Pat Shannahan 02:17
Um, what have you said, we’re gonna talk about the rosicrucians. I was super excited because I, I, I’ve read just like a tiny little bit about them. And in secret teachings of all the ages, but I don’t know much more than what’s in that book. And I have a list of questions. And I, I was really excited that this was what we’re going to talk about today.
Jake Trayer 02:40
Let’s do it. Let’s jump, jump in. So if you’ve got, you’ve got a whole list, I have a horrible top down.
Pat Shannahan 02:49
Um, I guess the first one is just kind of like, who are the rosicrucians? And kind of what’s their origin story? Where do they come to us from?
Jake Trayer 03:00
So a lot of this, arguably, even more so than Freemasonry is is debated on, you know, the I think the general consensus is that the origin of the rosicrucian order air quote, order or, you know, ideas began with the the three manuscripts that you might have read about in Manley p halls book, but definitely two that go together. And the third one is one of those things debated whether they they’re a trilogy or a third one was inspired by the first two or how it really went, but early 1600s. And I think Jamie said 1416 1415, and 17. And in order, they were the the fama, the confessio, and the chemical wedding, and the fame of the order, the confessional the order and then the chemical wedding of Christian rosenkreutz. There, they were anonymously published in in to begin or to virgin Germany, again in the early 1600s. And they turned up a lot of a lot of interests, like a lot of a lot of Indian individuals found. I think I think people were writing letters and trying to join tons of people were trying to figure out how to get into the group, all of which, at least most which went kind of unanswered. So that’s why it kind of kept its Mystique for a long time. Now the manuscripts themselves would argue the origin because they speak of an earlier origin you know, with within their the theme The farm on the confessio. They, they speak of an earlier, right, they speak of Christian, our brother, Christian, or CR, or RC and the whole history there. So so there’s kind of the the history that’s drawn out within those texts. And then there’s the history that we know whether you know, the history that’s drawn out in the text as real or not as, again, one of those things that we could argue for days, you know, that’s generally the origin what
Jaime Paul Lamb 05:33
you you explaining that made me think of weeks some Stephanie and I sometimes watch the creepy pasta type YouTube stuff. And there’s one, I think it’s atrocity guide is one of the channels that we watch. But, uh, but there is they sometimes talk about what is it a rp? Is that a thing where it’s like, or there’s definitely like, not a LARP. But there’s, you know, those role playing like, alternative, alternate reality game, I think is one. So the reason why I’m thinking about that stuff RPGs or, or a RPS, or whatever they call them, is because sometimes they’ll come up with this marketing hype. Like, if they’re coming out with a horror film, they will try and try to create this alternate history, like they’ll they’ll try and spin this story to where it gains marketing hype, just like they did like with Blair Witch, when they tried to say that, you know, they tried to power that I found that it was all real, right and create a legend to create a legend. Exactly. And I think that’s exactly what was going on with the rosicrucians because there was no rosicrucian order. You know, these people in the Tubingen circle yohannes valentijn valentijn. Andre, I think was his name. Well, so he and the other people in that circle of sort of academics, intellectuals, theologians, philosophers, alchemists, whatever they were right, this this post Protestant Reformation, reformation sort of mill, you have intellectuals in Northern Europe. So they, they, there was no rosicrucian order. And I think we pretty much know that now. So what they did was erected this this false history, right? They had the central legend of Christian rosenkreutz, who was the founder from, you know, I think he was born maybe 1370 something if I remember correctly, something like that. So they created this, this just fake lineage. And then they came out with these three, well, really two manifestos and an allegory. So they and they posted those, I think, in Kassel, Germany is where they first started posting them, but then they made it all other points Europe, you know, like in Paris a couple years later, and other places, these these, these manifestos would be posted in public squares. But But again, I think the important point is that they generated this hype, you know, just like they do in this modern in Modern Marketing for like games or alternate reality games or marketing hype for a horror film or something like that, like you see on the internet. It was exactly that same mechanism now that I think about it just came to mind as Jake was talking about that, where it’s like, it’s pretty interesting because it did exactly that. It just exploded it Oh, yeah. We’re, in fact culminated in what they called, or what, at least Yeates called the rosicrucian furor. furor, the rosicrucian furor was just like, and it’s like, what it sounds like just this sort of an explosive kind of social, fiery social event that that everybody seemed to get, you know, at least the intelligentsia.
Jake Trayer 09:27
It even caught people’s eye, you know, in nobility, like all levels of, of, you know, culture and like all What do you call it socio economic status or whatever you would call it back then it’s straight, everyone. Yeah, all across the board, people were interested. And like, even arguably, some of the ideas influenced certain political choices that were going on at least You know, a Yates. Jeanne mentioned z eights Really? unpacks a lot of that, but Okay, so that’s does that kind of answer that?
Pat Shannahan 10:09
Well, that was like, kind of paints the picture of where and when and, and, but but it doesn’t paint the picture of what is it they believed like what what are these ideas that that the rose Christians have that that created this fewer, you know that this this fury of people who wanted to be part of it during that time
Jaime Paul Lamb 10:29
they were vehemently anti Catholic, and I think that’s ever fiery. Yeah, very Yeah. I think that’s evident in the literature. And they were they, they espoused a sort of, kind of like scientism about their thing. I mean, there was they were very much, they seem to be at the fulcrum of like, you know, medicine, the sciences, they call themselves physicians, right, that they were to, to cure the sick and that gratis, that for free. So they were, they were versed in, you know, the chemistry or the alchemy properly of that time, they were first in the medicine. They were, as we said, they were academics and intellectuals and things, but they were also so they were also, again, in the context of the time in this post reformation, you know, environment that a lot of, you know, a lot of this theology at that time had been scrubbed, of some of the symbolism, I guess, you know, to where it was, like, if you think about Protestant churches today, not to diss them or anything, but it’s certainly not as gaudy and, and, and sort of symbolic and esoteric as Russian Orthodox or even Catholicism. You know, it’s like a relatively just moralistic kind of clean, cleaned up streamlined version of theology without without all the bells and whistles. So I think that they were trying, you know, my, I haven’t really read this anywhere, but my kind of feeling is that they were trying to fortify or, or, or imbue deeper meaning in the religious experience, but from the perspective of, of, again, these academics,
so that will
Jake Trayer 12:35
harken back to one thing Jamie said, because I think this was really explicitly the, their, their main goal was to heal the sick. Like their that that was, there was there wasn’t a lot of like dogma and a bunch of that stuff going on. It was really that that’s what they said they did, they healed the sick, they blend it in where they went, I think that was another thing is that they weren’t made those
of the culture, right,
Jake Trayer 13:07
they blend it in wherever they were. And, and to cure this to cure the sick, those were like, two of the more explicit if I was gonna, you know, sparknotes I mean that there wasn’t a whole lot in terms of, I think what you’re asking, like, explicit, like bullet points of we believe this and this and this and this, there wasn’t a whole lot of that. There was a lot of, like we said, anti Catholicism, Catholicism, and it was quite explicit in that regard and even against other alchemists talked about watching out for, you know, fake alchemy and gold makers, right. So it was a lot of warning of fake this and, and, you know, fake faith and posers to me Posers, really, they were like, watch out for the posers. We’re here, we remain in the shadows, we blend in where we are, and we’re here to heal the sick.
Pat Shannahan 14:12
That sounds like this was kind of right around the time of the Enlightenment, when, when all of a sudden people were trying to open their minds from not just not just knowing what the church was teaching, but trying to, like, start trying to understand science and medicine and, you know, the kind of Liberal Arts and Sciences and, and talk about these things together and, you know, combine them together, you know, that that sound kind of what they were doing is, yeah, all these different pieces of knowledge that that people were finding at the time and
Jaime Paul Lamb 14:48
yes, but I don’t think you find the sort of technical part of that is so yes, that might have been the tenor of it, right. But they, there’s no there’s no difference. ballistic technique, you know, they’re not saying like, you know, now we’re gonna deal with, you know, geometry or chemistry or, you know, some sort of explicit art, you know, or science. I think it was just more like, you know, the again, like Jake was saying, I don’t think there was a very clear cut like agenda, per se or like a curriculum or like, these are the rules. I mean, other than those ones, you know, which you blend in where you live, you don’t make yourself necessarily known, there’s this idea of an invisible college, which came up later. And then then then the physician sick. And even that physician thing nobody talks about, here’s how you dress a wound, you know, so again, again, no technique, and really not even much theory. So it just seemed like there was a lot of it was, the whole situation seemed to be kind of allegorized you know, and when they lay out this history of their founder, it’s obvious that if, you know follows these certain points about the collection of knowledge at various points along North Africa and the Mediterranean and the lavonne You know, he goes around and collects the in there’s this whole like, high row history I guess you could say a holy history or or just like a symbolic history of this the wanderings have Christian rosenkreutz. And then he comes back and forms disorder, and then they go defunct, and he’s dead for 120 years, I think. And then they find the tomb and he’s in this weird vault. It’s a really cool story. So but but in terms of the actual, like, there was no like, programmatic kind of stance, that was super spelled out or very clear. Yeah.
Pat Shannahan 17:01
So were they would you say that they influenced Freemasonry or that they were influenced by Freemasonry? Or is there kind of an intersection there at all?
Jake Trayer 17:11
Well, so what’s the earliest manuscript that we know of Masonic the Edinburgh house right? What isn’t that 16
Jaime Paul Lamb 17:21
regions the reaches poems like 13 stumped. Oh, really not. 1390 are the Halliwell maybe?
Jake Trayer 17:30
Okay. Well, yeah, I guess. I couldn’t speak with confidence in either, either way, because people will will argue with us, you know, if we say one thing or the other, I think it could be both ways. Yeah. It could, it could be both. And
Jaime Paul Lamb 17:49
it seems like it’s, and again, this is like, just trying to piece it together. And there’s a lot of conjecture and stuff, but it but it seems like yes, there was operative and speculative masonry happening. But that was kind of off to the side, you don’t see a lot of explicit Masonic references in the in the pharma, the confessio, or the chemical wedding. I mean, I don’t think you see any actually there’s nothing explicitly tying rosicrucianism to masonry, other than the most general things like okay, these guys are our alchemists. They’re operative and speculative alchemists, obviously, because they’re doing operative lab work, but they they obviously have the corresponding kind of speculative side to that as well. So in that sense, rosicrucianism mirrors the, the operative speculative dynamic in Freemasonry, but I would say that we do know that Elias Ashmole was if he wasn’t an alchemist himself, he was a collector of alchemical courtesies, and he was also an astrologer. And Thomas de Quincey said, is Thomas to Quincy said and I think I know the quote, he called him a zealous rosicrucian, whether that’s true or not Thomas to Quincy called Elias Ashmole, a zealous rosicrucian. And the reason why I bring up a small path is in case you don’t know, he’s widely touted as one of the early speculative masons on record. So he was made, and I think 1649 at at Warburton, England. I don’t quote me, but I’m pretty sure that’s right. Warburton, England 1649. A very early speculate speculative, along with like Robert Moray, and people like that a very early speculative Mason in an accepted a lodge of accepted masons. So not operatives. stonemasons. So he was had been called a rosicrucian by de Quincey. So you could say that early speculative masonry had rosicrucians and astrologers and probably cabalists among their ranks.
Jake Trayer 20:20
Yeah. And then there’s, there’s the obvious, you know, extra Masonic or appendant bodies that kind of refer back to the within the Scottish Rite, there’s some obvious rosicrucian themes going on and that there are even we’ll probably get into this, but they’re even, you know, kind of bodies will kind of there are there groups that require Roza quote, rosicrucian groups that require you know, Masonic, membership, or require you to be a Master Mason? So, in today’s day and age, yeah, there’s, there’s certainly rosicrucian influence on the Masonic superstructure, at least within a few of its appendant bodies. And, you know, you could argue, one way or the other, in the, in the first three degrees, you know, I’m sure you could pick some stuff out and nothing explicit, though. And I don’t think anything explicit ever, within any of the, you know, back into the rituals, history, I don’t think you can make a strong argument that there were ever, you know, explicit rosicrucian themes and the Masonic ritual, even back to when it was just the first two degrees.
Pat Shannahan 21:49
So in masonry, we have our symbols, you know, you drive when you’re driving into a new town, you pass some of those symbols, you know, on, on the, on the sign leading in there, or they have all the different organizations do did the rosicrucians have symbols? Are there other symbols associated with them that
Jake Trayer 22:17
yumminess I think the vault 10 tends to be at least within modern rosicrucian groups, a lot of the stuff that was spelled out in, in the fama and in the confessio I guess that’s more so the farmer would be like soli, rosicrucian, especially the vault, the heptagonal vault and that sort of thing. But I mean, our chemical in this like ds monus, hieroglyphics, is said to have had a lot of influence, because that was late 16th century, you know, just preceded this rosicrucian spark in the early 1600s. So there’s, there’s a good argument that you know, D is Mona’s hieroglyph, aka and, and that sort of thing had an influence on whatever his name is Valentino, or what, you know, this the suppose that author of, or at least one of the authors of at least one or a few of these texts, so a lot of our chemical synth symbolism is conflated with rosicrucian Rosa rosicrucian symbolism, I guess, is that fair to say?
Jaime Paul Lamb 23:42
Well, yeah, so Pat, if you’re saying, when you drive into a new town, new town, and you see the plaque for the Masons, and as a square encompasses on it, and you see the rotary and as that gear or that wheel for the rotary, etc. So further rosicrucians, obviously, it’s the rows and crosses. So, yes, so, so and that meaning something like I mean, you could unpack that a lot of different ways, but, but the cross of matter, maybe with the with the rows of the spirit or the soul affixed to it, and there being this sort of, dualistic kind of thing happening there, where it’s like, spirit and matter, and how spirit and matter are, are combined in the human experience, maybe, you know, and there is a lot of like, you know, like Jake was saying there’s there were a lot of tributaries to that and I think one of the main ones one of the big ones that just preceded that by maybe not, not 200 years was the, the Florentine, neo platanus. So the Florentine Academy of Neo platanus so they came into possession of all these hermetic and neoplatonic documents and, you know, orphic documents about fear G and about astrology and about alchemy and things. And these ideas were kind of on Dec in at least in sort of Southern or Central Europe. And then they just gradually bled out. Yeah. Oh, and paracelsus he was a huge influence on me even reference him. They do they reference his his I say he’s not a rosary. He’s not one of us. But, but his ideas are, are good kind of.
Jaime Paul Lamb 25:43
Yeah, exactly. So, so there would be no paracelsus without the work of the Florentine neo platanus I think, right, because it’s sort of through them that you get the the translations of the corpus hermeticum and a lot of other stuff and, and, and probably some of the while I’m not sure where they would have got things like the pika tricks, and but when you get people like a grip, and you get peristalsis, and probably curvature, and john D, and these people in Europe, who are who are working on various tributaries that would lead into the rosicrucian current, you know, I think that says a lot, you know, and
Jake Trayer 26:32
especially paracelsus, because he was mainly a physician. Right, so they probably, they probably call them out specifically because of that, that connection, among other things.
Jaime Paul Lamb 26:44
Yeah. And Andrea’s, Andres dad, like we were saying, I’m not sure if that was, we talked about that before, during this call, but uh, on andrii his dad was an operative alchemists. So he grew up in that sort of environment near, you know, basically in an operative lab. So he would have been exposed to a pair of calluses work, I’m sure, which was largely spit urich plant or vegetable kingdom, alchemy, you know, and because they were doing vegetable kingdom alchemy, they were probably dealing in a lot of tinctures like a physician would a physician would do planetary tinctures and, you know, various parts of the herb that work on the xo directly corresponding or mellow zz ik parts of the body that correspond to certain zodiacal signs or certain planets. And, and making tinctures to, you know, that was not like considered or observed at that time, that was medicine, that was like in squarely in the Aristotelian galenic physiology of, you know, popular medicine at that time, it would turn in another 100 years or so. But not by then not by the rosicrucian furor they would have still, that would have still been on deck as the way that you treat something by humoral. You know, about the humors Pat,
Pat Shannahan 28:21
right. Yeah. explain that a little bit for people who don’t.
Jaime Paul Lamb 28:26
So humoral theory involves like, like, slim, black bile, yellow bile, and blood would be these, I think those are the four of them. And there’s different temperaments that correspond to these. So there’s these, again, sort of galenic or before that even Aristotelian kind of temperaments. And you were treated by these in a very, almost astrological way, tinctures were made that would treat these certain ailments, depending on you know, the drop a chart physicians would in fact, they just recently found Did you see that report within the last like, couple years they recently found a bunch of physicians notes from England from probably around this time of the furor. And, and they were most of them had a horoscope drawn up for each of them. So they so they knew their baseline to start their their treatments which is pretty cool.
Pat Shannahan 29:42
I was just looking up like while you were you were talking about that i was i was looking up with the humors are in Yeah, blood yellow bile, black bile and phlegm. Yeah. And
Jaime Paul Lamb 29:56
sanguine choleric. melancholic, And what’s the other ones you would express certain it would be expressed in certain ways. So if you were, if you were sanguine, you had some sort of, I think that was yellow bile. black bile was melancholic, yellow bile was choleric. If I’m not mistaken, I
forgot but sanguine, sanguine would have been blood.
Right? It sounds like it would have been but I think sanguine was like sanguine. Doesn’t that mean like happy? You’re a joyous happy person?
Easy asterik active and social.
Okay. Yeah. Yeah, I guess. I guess sanguine would be blood anyway. We’ve digressed. Yes. Thank you, she moral theory, which is
easy to do that with this stuff.
Pat Shannahan 30:58
So So what, what, what groups what other groups might have the rosicrucians? influenced? Do they have any influence on like the Golden Dawn or any of those folks?
Jake Trayer 31:12
Yeah, I think Jamie can speak with more authority on on this sort of thing as well, probably on all this stuff. But But yeah, certainly the guy. I mean, he talks about the Golden Dawn, certainly a lot of that the Golden Dawn, and it’s splinter organizations, you know, refer to themselves as rosicrucian orders. So, you know, although they carry a different name, you know, or title title, like the Golden Dawn or the builders of the atom or whatever, you know, whatever. Most most of them call themselves rosicrucian orders, and most of them follow the rosicrucian sort of grade structures Well, so,
Jaime Paul Lamb 31:57
wait, wait, wait, Jake. So let me ask before you move away from that, so quick. Didn’t Paul foster case kick out all the rosicrucianism from builders of the atom, because he was an alphabet omega member in Chicago,
Jake Trayer 32:13
kicked out at least all of the Egyptian isms and the nokian isms. But I
Jaime Paul Lamb 32:19
but I thought the rosicrucian stuff was out too. I thought, I thought basically, Botha was or builders of the atom was just outer order. gdx. So just a sort of learning grades and then after that, no rosicrucianism no Egyptian isms, and no, in okiya
Jake Trayer 32:39
Well, maybe someone else can comment. Not that I know. All I know is that he he dumped the Egyptian stuff and he dumped the the nokian stuff that stuff scared.
Pat Shannahan 32:50
So is there a degree structure kind of like masonry? And do they have like an initiating system?
Jaime Paul Lamb 32:56
Oh, so yeah, that’s Samuel Rector or Herman fick. tooled Herman fit tooled and Samuel Richter, I forget which one came first. But I want to say it was 17. It was really, really early, it was like 1730, or something like that, or 1761 of the two Samuel Rector or Herman Fitzgerald. Started age, they were Freemasons, and one of them started the gold on Rosen cruiser, the orden desk, gold Rosen cruiser was the name of it. So this is very early. This is 18th century, probably middle of the 18th century. In Germany, which is the epicenter of early rosicrucianism. And there is a sonic group documented at that time, who started this, specifically, may Sonic rosicrucian, order the Golden rosenkreutz are, and what’s interesting about that is their grade structure. And this is the first appearance of this on record. Their grade structure was set for Rafik. So, it was this qabalistic grid structure meaning that the the sepharose of the kabbalistic tree of life represented a great so that was the first so when you talk about the non equals na or the five equals six or whatever these grades that we know of in the GED system, or even the grades that we know of and they may Sonic rosicrucian structure, the Zealot or the neophyte the theodorakis philosophers etc. These grades all come from so the GED and the Sri or Sri s are societatis whereas christianna grades come from this German order called the ordering test. Gold rose and Kurtzer and its first appearance of that which is significant because everybody uses that grade structure.
Jake Trayer 35:09
Yeah, even today. Yeah, that’s that’s basically been, there are slight variations. So, you know, you’ll see some groups that don’t have the not equals not or the zero equals zero, some start out just with 110. Some don’t have a 10. One, some do. So, there are, there are variations between organizations on all but again, all like Jamie said, are good qabalistic grade structure in and that’s what I meant when I say rosicrucian grades, you know, grade structuring is truly a qabalistic grade structure because again, it follows the sky again, up the tree, you’re working your way back up the tree. And, and some groups more than others put an emphasis even on the pathways and working the pass path working right. So it does it does change from group to group, but as far as I know, I mean, Crowley’s stuff, the Oto and there’s the the the kind of outlier, I guess, that I could think of that is still heavily influenced by it. And as far as I know, and I don’t know a lot would be Martin ism, because I know they they kind of ditch the the Tree of Life kind of glyph and that whole system and and OPT it. There’s a Jamie Do you know much about Martin ism because I think I
Jake Trayer 36:48
because they adopted another glyph of sorts that they kind of follow, but I know there’s still heavy rosicrucian influence and even qabalistic influence, they just framed it differently. And I structured their
Jaime Paul Lamb 37:06
you know why? I think that might be Jay because because Martin is some appeared, you know, vilmos and semar. Some
Jaime Paul Lamb 37:18
Yeah. So, so I think that I think that they inherited more of a German Theosophy and when I say German Theosophy, I mean more like Jaco beyma so like or or Jacob boehme, Jaco Bama where they sort of didn’t get the rosicrucian current per se they got more of this a German mystical CSR fickle Christianity, you know where we’re in. I do know that in Martin ism, they deal heavily in the pentagram Matan so instead of the tetragrammaton that we think of qabalistic. Klee they Ye
love, that’s for sure.
Jaime Paul Lamb 38:07
Yeah, they used and I’m not sure if that was famous, original construction.
Do you know what that is?
Pat Shannahan 38:14
No, what is that? I know. I know what the tetragrammaton is. But
Jake Trayer 38:19
so the pentagram Aton is, is the tetragrammaton with sheen dropped right in the middle. Right, so the Hebrew letter Sheen, so yoed Hey, Sheen, Bob. Hey, or Yeshua. So that’s what Jamie’s referring to. He’s talking about the pentagram of time, which which is more Christian in nature, especially within Martin ism, because it’s, it’s the spirit kind of dropped in there. It’s more, it’s more elusive to the Trinity and sort of Christian specific ideas, but it’s, it’s even in other stuff. I mean, the pentagram Aton is referred to another, you know, stuff that we’ve talked about, just not as much. So I guess that last question, I hope we answered some extent, I mean, a lot tons of modern and and through the past couple 100 years. esoteric, or Western mystical organizations were influenced, not only by that Rosen crucial rosicrucian furor, furor, but that qabalistic grades scheme and you’ll see that all over the place.
Pat Shannahan 39:44
So you’ve mentioned a group a couple times, I was hoping you all talk about and i i think i i’ve seen that I’ve read that a guy that we’ve talked about a couple times in our podcasts. Edward Arthur wait was a member of it. The society TAs they was christianna right?
Jaime Paul Lamb 40:04
Yes. So so you can be really douchey and say so kiya TAs Rosa crew Kiana and do the hard C’s like
which is which is accurate,
Jaime Paul Lamb 40:17
which is accurate. I like it, but I never say it like that because I don’t want to like, just, I don’t know, I just feel self conscious saying that. So, basically, I think everybody just err on the side of saying societatis Reza christianna
Okay, this was kooskia
when I get a text
from a certain brother. Yeah. So
Jaime Paul Lamb 40:42
but, so that rather. So that is, um, that is the Masonic rosicrucians. So you get that I think first appearance of that is the in Scotia. So 1860, I want to say, could be a little bit earlier than that, but 18, the middle of the 19th century, you get a proper Masonic rosicrucianism that is different from the orden dis, wrote rosenkreutz or that we talked about from the preceding century, although it uses that grade structure, it recycles that grade structure. So first appearance in Scotland, I think Wentworth little maybe or one worth little was the Sri A. So that’s an Anglia. So here’s here’s a bit of a strange thing, I think went worth little went over to Scotia, Scotland, and took the grades there. And then he went back to England. And he formed the Sri a, the societatis, Reza christianna Anglia, and then he turned around in true British style, and then they made Scotland regular. So isn’t that strange? how that worked? So I’m pretty sure that’s the story. So they were like, Okay, then you guys are regular, despite the fact that they made him you know, but so then from from Sri a, you get like in America, we have these societatis Rosa Christiana in civitatis, Federer atus, or COVID status, veteran status if you do the heart, see. And so, so that’s an order that still, you know, that’s an extent that’s, that’s been going, you know, straight through society as far as a cruciani in, in one jurisdiction or another has been going since the middle of the 19th century. steadily and I think growing, you know, that’s something where, if you go to Kentucky, like there are High Council meetings in Kentucky once a year. And they’re just packed with people, they packed this massive hotel, the brown hotel, packed with rosicrucians. And in their dining hall there, it’s it’s amazing. I mean, and everybody you talk to, like, you know, how you go to a regular may Sonic thing and you’re like, yeah, Kabbalah this or alchemy that or whatever. And everybody’s like, yeah, whatever, you know, like, it’s just kind of, most of the time, they’ll just shrug it off, just because it’s not everybody’s area of venture. So I understand that. But if you you can go to this thing. In, in Kentucky, the High Council of the Sri CF, and everybody you talk to is conversant, at least to some extent, in alchemy or astrology or thier cheer, you know, all of these are Kabbalah, or hermeticism. You know, they just, they’re interested in that stuff. So it’s like an affinity group. Oh, and this should be mentioned as well. Yes, you must be a Master Mason to be invited to the societies for as a cristiana. But the societatis whereas a cruciani is not properly a Masonic organization. It is not under the jurisdiction of any particular Grand Lodge. And it’s a completely separate order. Right. So, but they just happen to, you know, be peopled by master masons exclusively. So, it’s pretty interesting how that works.
Pat Shannahan 44:41
So was Arthur. Edward Arthur. Wait, remember?
Ours? I know.
Jaime Paul Lamb 44:48
I know. He was GD and I’m not sure did he do sir III? I don’t. Yeah,
Jake Trayer 44:53
I probably did. I think he did. So yeah. And they so each I don’t know how it’s probably similar. Maybe Jamie you know, but you know here in the States each state has a college and I’m sure it’s maybe a few colleges per country in Europe or maybe even just one or so I don’t know quite how it is over there. I would imagine though it’s similar to
Jaime Paul Lamb 45:21
I think, though, I think they have Metro College in London I’m pretty sure they’ve got a college and like Bristol, which is I got a few PR countries
Jake Trayer 45:30
but yeah, typically one person I think there might be a few states that have to write New York have to
Jaime Paul Lamb 45:37
Yeah, I think New York and Texas maybe in California Brawley, California.
Pat Shannahan 45:42
So I bring that I bring up Edward Arthur way because, you know, he’s the guy that that created the Tarot deck that is probably the one of the most popular Tarot decks in the, in the world. And I was wondering, what what, what influence is kind of involvement in that might have had on that tarot deck, or there’s symbols within the the rider Waite Smith deck that have kind of Rose crucian theme or influence.
So, Jamie’s area
Jaime Paul Lamb 46:23
Well, I mean, I’m not. I mean, I like that jack and I came up on that deck, but it’s not my go to, anyway, but but he, uh, he was he joined the hermetic order the Golden Dawn before he was a Mason and before he was a rosicrucian that I know, okay, so he was like, I don’t know what he was into before he joined the GED. But he, I think, I think maybe masers or maybe even Wescott somebody was advocating for him and he like was going to be a member or he might have done like a not equals not grade or the neophyte grade. And then he went his own way for a while, and then he came back, I think, here’s the story. But anyway, so it took a while for him to be able to become a Mason, and be if he did join dsra. And I think he probably did. That was after his exposure to the hermetic order of the goal. And the other thing is this, which I think would have disqualified him from Sri, which is why I questioned whether he was a member or not, is that he had his own rosicrucian order after the these skills after the schism, the Golden Dawn schism, where the Golden Dawn splintered off into, like stellar Stella matutina, Alpha and Omega couple other things. He Arthur Edward way, had a FRC I think it’s fractures Rosen rock fractures of the Rosie cross or something like that FRC and or and I think he was initially calling it the rectified right or something. But so yeah, I do know that he kind of stumbled around through that stuff. You know, he’s really, I don’t want to you know, diss him too much. He’s, he’s very difficult to read. Very circuitous. You ever read any of his stuff path?
I don’t think so.
Jaime Paul Lamb 48:41
Yeah, it’s like a mess. It’s like, you can read a page and then you’re like, well, I got to read that again. Because it’s like, none of it will stick. I mean, it’s so like, oh, and you know, what’s even worse than that? I am going to disome I don’t care. So, I mean, what’s he gonna beat beat me up? He’s, he’s dead.
He’s well over 100 years old. He won’t be sending you in any nasty emails, like
Jaime Paul Lamb 49:09
super old and if he would, if he did send me a nasty email, I wouldn’t understand. No, I’m not gonna. I’m not gonna do some, you know, but I but I, it’s okay to have a critique a good natured critique, and my good natured critique, is that is that the one of the things that was super annoying about him is he was the he was the primary like translator and commentator on the works of Elvis levy. And, and like key to the mysteries, dogma and ritual of high magic or transcendental magic as it’s sometimes known. And whatever the other one was the history of magic. Levy’s history of magic is also So I notated and translated by weight. And here’s why I feel okay, kind of dissing weight a little bit is because he took elephants Levy’s work, and just like, every other footnote is him. proving how he’s smarter than elephants loving. You know, every other footnote, he’s like saying, well, this is wrong and here’s why. And he’s just got such a tone about them such a slap double tone about his commentary. It’s. You see that right, Jake? You ever noticed that stuff in his footnotes?
Jake Trayer 50:39
Maybe I don’t fake like you do? I don’t know. I don’t fray. I when I read old, stuff like that, I don’t like think in those terms. Like I don’t
like slang. Really? It doesn’t.
Jake Trayer 50:53
I think we’re gonna go off track, though. I think the question was, whether he impregnated the rider Waite tarot deck with Rosa, Christian symbolism? And I guess you could say yes, and no, um, I mean, the meaning split, explicitly, explicitly. Off the top of my head, no, like not, not at any blatant way. Like how other Tarot decks Do you know, that have come out of the gdx lineage and that sort of thing? But But, again, I think you could, you could pull some out, you could pull some out of the deck, I’m sure. And maybe it maybe there was intent, but to my knowledge, there’s not no writings of his that Jamie hates, or does not hate that, that speak to that. I don’t think there’s necessarily in the little booklet that you even get with, you know, the common rider Waite decks, that it would refer back to any rosicrucians stuff in the explanation, little card explanations or anything like that. So to my, to my knowledge, no, not explicitly. But, again, the more conversant you become with a deck, or, specifically, the rider Waite deck, I’m sure you can draw some, some or pull some rows, a rosicrucian theme symbol, what, uh, you know, that sort of thing? It just, it would take some more, you know?
Pat Shannahan 52:39
So is there anything else we need to talk about? With the about the rosicrucians? Is there anything? Any any questions I might have glossed over that y’all think are important. Just,
Jake Trayer 52:51
I think, you know, when people ask me about it, that a lot of the questions that I get are like, what’s legit? You know, like, that seems to be the big point, because there’s so many splinter organizations nowadays. And I’ve got at least, you know, in my experience, because, you know, we’re not supposed to call each other out, but I’m a member of the SRCS the college here in Arizona, and, and some other organizations that again, call themselves rosicrucian.
Pat Shannahan 53:23
So what, what’s, what’s the full name of that rather than the acronym
Jake Trayer 53:28
societatis, Rosa crew, Kiana and civitatis fed aratus. Yeah, so I, but there are all sorts, there’s tons, right? There’s a more, which is big. And you got a lot of people that subscribe to their stuff. And a lot of people that don’t or do like them, you’ve got the three the big three, Sri Sri Sri CF, and the answer, I guess, is you’ve got all the Golden Dawn, lineage and splinters and all that sort of thing. And there’s a lot of claims to rosicrucianism, I guess, is what I’m getting at. And I think, again, the question I get a lot is what’s legit, and it’s kind of hard to answer. Like, I didn’t bring that up to answer it. You know, for everyone. I’m just saying this is what’s legit, cuz I don’t like believe that. But to anyone who might now be questioning, like, well, where can I start? Where can I do this? Well, hopefully this podcast was a start. But I would I would check out you know, depending on where you’re at in your life, meaning like, are you Mason, are you not a mason? You know, there are groups that are co Ed, there are groups that are not co Ed. just poke around, see if there are some things that spark your interest in in terms of maybe specific symbolism that’s used or specific, you know, calls to action even, you know, on some websites, poke around. I love the my experience in the end they college here in Arizona. But again, that’s an Invitational body, it’s not the easiest to work your way in. It’s the colleges are limited in membership. I mean, Jay, what do you think?
Jaime Paul Lamb 55:25
I think that’s an important thing to bring up is that you can’t ask to be a member, right? of society, sort of christianna that’s an Invitational body, you know, and it’s almost unattractive to ask, right? So, I mean, you’renot, it’s not an attractive to us, for someone to show interest in the end, certain ideas that are Western, esoteric.
Jaime Paul Lamb 55:52
And that’s what I was gonna say is, if you’re, if, say, you’re interested in society to serve as a cruciani membership, my advice would be to, to try and be visible in terms of your research, maybe try and publish a paper on hermeticism or on Kabbalah, which are both squarely within the purview of it says in the aims, and I believe in the ordinances, the doctrines of Hermes trismegistus, aka hermeticism. And the, the, I forget how they weren’t the kabbalistic part of it, but something exactly, that says Kabbalah, right. So if you’re, if you’re working within the domains of hermeticism, and Kabbalah, and you’re a Freemason, a Master Mason, and you’re doing something visible, or you’re showing interest or aptitude and in either of those studies, then you may get an invite to a college, if if one of the frat trades of the college becomes aware of your interest and aptitude, but am Mark, for example, they’re just you know, clamoring for members. So you could readily join they if you wanted to do homework, you can sign up for their you can go online right now, and sign up for their correspondence course, courses, and then boom, you pay whatever it is 3050 100 bucks, whatever it is, you’re a member, you can walk around just saying, Yeah, I’m a rosicrucian. I’m a member of amaura. I do their correspondence courses, and I’ve never seen another rosicrucian live in front of my face my whole life. Yeah.
Jake Trayer 57:38
But they’re all sorts that are still around today. There’s the BTA still I know exists in a lot of states. And as is their correspondence work is still around, I know that there are Golden Dawn organizations that still are alive today that that practice, good, Golden Dawn work those those you’ll have to poke around some more, because it’s those seem more kind of sparse throughout throughout the world. But you know, I know for a fact that here in Arizona, I know in Texas, I know New York and California and New Zealand, throughout Europe, there are all sorts of lineages that still exist. And the more you read, and the more you poke around online, and again, the whole code, you know, if you’re a female, and you’re interested in some of this stuff, you know, the ESRI and it’s a couple other groups are not going to be an option for you. But there are other groups that do Good stuff, good work, good, you know, square rosicrucian themed grade work or, you know, qabalistic, you know, sefardic grade work, but is rosicrucian nature. So there’s something for everyone. And that’s just a question I’ve gotten a lot. So I thought it would be relevant throw out there. I don’t think I won’t speak to the superiority of one over another this or that, that’s up to everyone to determine Because ultimately, it’s what you get out. I know plenty of people who have joined those organizations and, and haven’t gotten shit out of them right and left after a not equals not or whatever, in or during a not equals not during a degree free down left. So it’s really up to the individual. So other than that, I don’t know that I have much more to touch on. I think this is a good cursory kind of episode on, on what we intended to talk about.
What do you think, Jamie?
Jaime Paul Lamb 59:40
I think that yeah, I think that that should answer a lot of questions and, and hopefully, hopefully inspire more questions, you know, and one last thing that I think would make it kind of clear, at least from the perspective of societatis versus christianna is again saying, what is it that we do? And that is, it says in the aims that we, I wish I could remember this, you know, the part where it says like to, to research and study the ancient art, science, wisdom, philosophy and religions of the world to explore the doctrines of Hermes trismegistus and to study the Kabbalah, you know, I mean, these things are like that, that isn’t verbatim, that’s like a bad paraphrase. But those things are said in there in some order. And they’re, they’re, they’re part of the aims and ordinances. So that tell that should tell you more than anything, what, what, at least may Sonic rosicrucianism is about which for my money, and this is my personal opinion, that is the only rosicrucian order. I mean, other than I mean, that is the only It’s like my favorite rosicrucian order.
Mine too bad What else you got?
Pat Shannahan 1:01:33
on the list, though? So just in, in our show notes, what what do you think we’ll be able to provide people I mean, we’d be able to link off to the three main rose Christian texts that Yeah,
Jake Trayer 1:01:44
we can certainly, Well, certainly throw some links to certainly the source work, you know, those three manuscripts that we talked about, we can link in there. And Jamie and I can hash out what are the good translations that real quick, but you know, something that Jamie and I do a part of the, the college is, we there’s like a little book club thing, and we do a lot of that source work for, you know, hermeticism neoplatonic stuff. rosicrucian stuff is what we like to, to work through. So maybe we’ll throw some of that stuff in there. I’m sure we could come up with at least 10 good books, and maybe even a few links to websites, that would be good. jumping off points for interested parties.
Pat Shannahan 1:02:36
I think that would be really helpful. So yeah, click on through to the website to Tria prima.co. And you’ll go to the podcast section in the show notes, there’ll be plenty of links that can let you dive deeper into your research into rosicrucianism.
Jaime Paul Lamb 1:02:57
Should we not afford the last m on our on our
Pat Shannahan 1:03:01
list could’ve just got it. Somebody got it. And it’s not somebody has the we don’t have
Jake Trayer 1:03:10
somebody, somebody give us a generous donation so we can buy out the M, whoever’s got our
and it feels like we’re on Wheel of Fortune we want to buy in
Jake Trayer 1:03:25
for now. Well, we got some more stuff we’re working on. glad we’re back. Hopefully we’ll keep doing this more frequently. Sorry, to those of I have had a lot of people reach out and say when the heck are you guys gonna do another thing, which is always felt nice. I felt bad because we have we haven’t done much in the past few months in terms of the podcast, at least, but a lot of people asking so hopefully we’ll get this up as soon as we can. And we’ll hopefully get more we’ve got other cool ideas for podcasts.
Jaime Paul Lamb 1:03:54
Yeah. And and one thing I think’s important to say is that’s that we’re doing a conversational tone about this stuff. Obviously, we’re just talking about things that we’re interested in. And we’re, you know, again, like Pat plays this sort of the, the frame of reference for the listener, you know, who might be wanting to learn about this stuff, asking the pertinent questions, trying to, you know, and then Jake and I just talking about what we know about these things, and trying to be trying to maintain some epistemic humility about this stuff, and just conversationally, talk about it without it being contrived. And without it being a presentation. You can go on zoom and see five presentations that are these prepared things every night, but I think the value is in us just chopping it up. You know, like you would if, if the three of us were out of poppers
Jake Trayer 1:05:00
yeah we don’t rehearse this. We just come up with a topic day of usually and, and hit record and we go for it.
We clearly do not
Pat Shannahan 1:05:14
Cool. All right. Shout out to Adam Goldman. He’s got a new article on Tria premed worth worth reading for sure. And also, you know, want to mention that Jamie’s got a new book out. It’s new since the last time we had a podcast. Yeah. Approaching the middle chamber. on Amazon. Pick it up. Damn,
Jaime Paul Lamb 1:05:38
that came out since our last podcast. Yeah,
Jake Trayer 1:05:43
Yeah. No book. We’ve got a lot of good authors. We Brian Sears is kind of a new contributor that we’ve had hop on Tria prima. Like we said, atoms is the newest paper and that’s relevant to an astrological alignment that’s coming up here pretty soon. So check that out. Especially if you’re into the eastern stuff. But that’s it for me. Thanks, guys.
Pat Shannahan 1:06:13
Guys, well, we’ll see you next time and we’ll we’ll try it out to be in some stranger’s system.
Jake Trayer 1:06:20
All right. Bye, everybody. Bye.